HorsePower vs Shaft Size

Posted in: , on 7. Mar. 2007 - 18:01

Okay I'm struggling again. I am desiging belt weigh feeder and based on my calcs we only need 0.07 HP for steady state running and a starting HP 0.13HP. Customer wants 1/2 HP motor installed which is 0.5/0.07 = 7 times oversized. In my calcs for shaft sizing, I'm comparing sizes req'd based on deflection and stress for running, starting and empty belt conditions. If conveyor jams and full 1/2HP load is applied then I should back calculate Te, T1, T2 etc. This increases the shaft sizes greatly.

To reduce the shaft sizes I would like to limit the current supplied to the VFD to a value just slightly above the starting requirements. The equation for current is:

3phase Amps = 746 x HP / (1.732 x Volts x Eff. x PowerFactor)

So all I need is the Eff. and Power Factors but I don't know where to get them.

Anyone have any experience that would help?

gblizard
(not verified)

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 7. Mar. 2007 - 06:13

Those are available from the motor manufacturer's website.

3phase Amps = 746 x HP / (1.732 x Volts x Eff. x PowerFactor)

So all I need is the Eff. and Power Factors but I don't know where to get them.

Anyone have any experience that would help? [/B][/QUOTE]

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 7. Mar. 2007 - 07:58

Originally posted by designer999

So all I need is the Eff. and Power Factors but I don't know where to get them.

Anyone have any experience that would help? [/B]

Reputable motor manufacturers will show this data in their catalogues for at least 100%, 75% and 50% load. I'd give you my data but it's all in kW, 400v and 50 hz.

Be careful, small motors have bad efficiencies and power factors, and the actual motor may may vary from the published data.

What size shaft are you intending to use? There's no point in going too small. Also if the conveyor stalls the motor you're likely to generate maybe twice full load torque on a three phase motor.

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 7. Mar. 2007 - 08:24

If I don't limit the current within the VFD, the shaft sizes would be 4-7/16 drive, and 3-7/16 driven in 8" diam pulleys. The sizes are governed by stress equations.

If I do limit the current, then sizes are 2-15/16 and 2-7/16.

I'm waiting for my supplier to get back to me.

Could you explain in more detail about the conveyor stalling.....

Thanks.

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 7. Mar. 2007 - 08:33

Not wishing to doubt your shaft calculations, but the shaft sizes do seem rather large when considering a 1/2 HP (0.37kW) electric motor. Your shafts must be rotating exceedingly slowly?

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 7. Mar. 2007 - 08:36

Yup this feeder is 2.7 fpm at max rate.

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 7. Mar. 2007 - 09:40

Originally posted by designer999

Yup this feeder is 2.7 fpm at max rate.

.. exceedingly slow.

Regarding the stalled motor condition (locked rotor), then typically the torque is twice the full load torque. However as this is an "emergency" condition then the factors of safety for the shaft material can be reduced. What strength steel are you using for the shaft?

Also this thread may be of assistance --

https://forum.bulk-online.com/showth...&threadid=8237

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 7. Mar. 2007 - 10:26

We normally use 1045 shafting.

CEMA recommends that a line drawn from the starting torque requirement to full running load torque should be below the torqure vs. RPM curve of the motor.

I've checked this theory and found that it is not usually an issue if you choose a HP rating slightly greater than the steady state HP requirement.

I've used the standard factors of safety and k reductions from ANSI B105.1 for stresses.

Thanks for the thread ref.

Over-Sized Shafts

Posted on 8. Mar. 2007 - 07:27

You don't have a lot of alternatives, but I think you are on the right track by limiting the current to the drive. However, be sure to label your equipment properly. Otherwise, the first time it stalls out on graveyard shift, the night electrician will wonder why it has such small overloads and install the proper ones.

If you want to be safe .... compromise! Use a higher grade of steel to minimize shaft size; turn your shaft down one size at the bearings to minimize bearing size; install a shearpin hub or slip clutch (Oh! I hate to suggest that!); use a hydraulic drive where pressure and flow can be controlled.

Re: Over-Sized Shafts

Posted on 8. Mar. 2007 - 09:42

Originally posted by pjanze

Use a higher grade of steel to minimize shaft size

With belt conveyor drive pulleys shaft size is often defined by deflection so high strength steels can be a waste of money.

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 8. Mar. 2007 - 10:32

Well I received a motor data sheet from my supplier. It shows Current, Torque, Eff and PF for various percentages of full load.

In my case I need about 0.39 ft-lbs to start feeder which is about 25% of the Torque capacity. The Amps at this load are 0.55. If I round it up to 0.6 Amps I'll get 0.75 ft-lbs which is closer to 50% capacity.

Using this torque of 0.75 ft-lbs I can re-calc equivalent HP of motor and back calculate tension values to apply to pulleys and shaft designs (based on stress method).

What a dogs breakfast this is!!!!

Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 9. Mar. 2007 - 04:18

Your dilema is due to doubt (possibly legitimate) that your calculatrions reflect reality. Why else would you choose such oversize in your motor? Having chosen the oversized motor what makes you think that its full loading or (higher yet) stalled torque will be incurred? If your belt (take-up) tensions are set according to your calculations then the drive pulley will slip at the belt before developing the 7-fold (full motor load) or 14-fold (max motor starting) torque. You need to bound your analysis realistically including factors that reflect the range of uncertainty for small applications (maybe two-fold, not 7-fold or 14-fold). Once you establish this realistic criteria then treat it with certainty and size your shafts accordingly. Running loads are the only loads that matter as these determine fatigue and life. Start-up loads are not so important as they don't typically approach yield stress levels, and the number of starts don't typically threaten fatigue failure.

Joseph A. Dos Santos

Dos Santos International 531 Roselane St NW Suite 810 Marietta, GA 30060 USA Tel: 1 770 423 9895 Fax 1 866 473 2252 Email: jds@ dossantosintl.com Web Site: [url]www.dossantosintl.com[/url]

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 9. Mar. 2007 - 02:36

Our customer has stipulated the motor size and I was just assuming the worst possible case if it was overloaded the feeder jammed. You have mentioned some interesting points that I will look into. Thanks.

I have considered shafts sizing due to deflectoin and fatique. I've also considered the starting hp (or oversized motor HP potential) load and sized the shafts for stress. Basically, I've taken the max of a) starting HP req'mnts or b) selected motor HP and used this to factor up the tensions/forces at the pulleys.

i.e. T1max = Terun x HPmax / HPrun

T2max = T1run x HPmax / HPrun

etc, etc

I'm questioning this now. I really didn't find a way to apply startup HP to pulley loads. Also, the std B105.1 did not mention anything about startup loads .... only running loads.

I have Ishwar Mulani's texts but if I apply all his theory I would basically have to start from scratch.

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 9. Mar. 2007 - 04:06

Originally posted by designer999



I have Ishwar Mulani's texts but if I apply all his theory I would basically have to start from scratch.

.... yeh, life can be a real pain!!

Re: Horsepower Vs Shaft Size

Posted on 10. Mar. 2007 - 05:33

I made some typos in my last post...

T1max = T1run x HPmax / HPrun

T2max = T2run x HPmax / HPrun

Regardless, I'll look into using realistic load ranges and sensible factors of safety.

Out for now.

Thanks all.